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Author Topic: New post, Roots of Thanksgiving  (Read 1714 times)
Christopher Nyerges
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« on: November 17, 2016, 12:51:55 AM »

Happy Thanksgiving all!  Hope you enjoy the post.
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Rooster
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« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2016, 08:33:44 AM »

Happy Thanksgiving to you too. Enjoyed the post, Choctaw heritage here.

Good health to you and DT, Rooster
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 08:39:23 AM by Rooster » Logged

I can be just as angry at the jihadists for wanting to kill me, as they are angry with me for being an American.

Yo soy un Indio Americano

 Vayo con dios mi amigos en la fe

 Someday, the highest peak on the tallest mountain on earth, may be nothing more than a grain of sand on the beach.
Bill S
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« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2016, 10:14:29 AM »

That is probably one of the best articles on the origins of Thanksgiving that I have ever read. 

And your call to action is very well done.

Outstanding.
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Christopher Nyerges
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« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2016, 11:23:05 AM »


Thank you Bill S!  Remember that you always get the best at Dirttime!

In fact, "Thanksgiving" is SO different in origin than what most people think. That treaty-party (along with 1492) have been re-written for the mythology of the U.S., and it's always good to remember the facts.

I enjoy a solemn day with family, reflecting on things... despite the origins....
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Dude McLean
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« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2016, 11:52:15 AM »



 okay very well done for a white eyes ... will have my grandkids read this ...


 have a happy one ... you turkeys ,,,, Dude
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I have been where the hand of man has never set foot...
I'm not in  here with you , you are in here with me!...
 Of course I'm out of my mind , it's dark and scary in there...
Be a DirtBag and Fill it by Owning the Skills...
http://dirttimedude.blogspot.com visit my blog
"I have sat in the front row of hell and spit in the devils eye, first the right then the left.
 I have lived my life in such a manner that when I roll out of bed in the morning and my feet hit the floor , the devils reaction is .. oh shit!!.. he's awake!!!.
Drivebytrucker
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« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2016, 12:18:43 PM »

Great artical Chris. I'm not sure how it's different then most Americans think as I haven't asked many Americans this question outside of family and friends who knew this story plus or minus a few details. While abroad I have asked those outside of America what they know of American holidays, celebrations, and culture. These are not necessarily random people I meet in a rail car or a shuttle bus. They are friends or people whom I am friendly enough terms to talk openly with. I have asked about Thanksgiving in particilar and most (Europeans and Russians mostly) knew about it as you described without memorizing specific names, dates, and location.
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vector001
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« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2016, 12:40:56 PM »

in the spirit of this article, i feel blessed that brother nyerges takes great pride in remaining objective and transparent, first of all, as some things just need to be said here.

(ol' vec, ever an objective friend, puts on the black hat.)


tsk, tsk! christopher! i tsk-tsk, you!

1) where are the references, as the article implies, that support the theory that Thanksgiving is "mythos"...?

2) why, as the article states, are these natives that we are encouraged by the author to support, instead of doing a personal Thanksgiving, still in these "third world conditions"...? I happen to know some of the reasons why from VERY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE - the Navajo, for example, who brother nyerges' is intimately familiar with through his late wife, believe their Devil was a gambler - so they have no substantial casinos to enrich their tribe while lying on their backs, like the tribes east, west, and north of them. furthermore, perhaps not unlike brother nyerges and his relations, MY FAMILY goes to the Navajo reservation AT LEAST ONCE A YEAR on humanitarian errands, for the last FORTY YEARS, and they have made very little headway due to nothing more than their own ways, and the ones that do do well, are usually forced out - much like on the Rosebud in the Dakotas, where my people (including Sioux!) are from, up north, which my family has been a part of supporting since before I was born.


i call BS, perhaps i shoulda said....

3) this is my favorite of course, because it is the ultimate in the loser/liberal double-talk and idiosyncratic logic - "The white man done took my land!" = well, no.

the white man did not take your land. he took THE land, just like you like to conveniently forget that YOUR people did before colonial arrivals, Chief AntsInPants. as a matter of fact, none of the Sioux territories were Sioux before colonists landed, nor a hundred or more years after. it's just a fact. (a fact the average Sioux, and every other potential cigar salesman tends to overlook, as he stands on the bones and opened skulls of women and children that his ancestors rubbed out in their own expansions and migrations - so lucky, not to have a self-damning written history....)

....and, i might add, nothing keeps you from buying the land back and being a slave to the IRS like those blue eyed devils BTW, instead of continuing to live on a reservation that is as close to Paradise as this vector can envision, with your hogans, sheep, and alcohol, one valley per family, not to mention the waterfalls that you hold sp, so high holy - unitil a rich liberal can pay to see them, of course....

so give me a break.

let it rest. - at least wriite this crap AFTER Thanksgiving. teach compassion by demonstrating it first.


articles like this irritate me, like most nurses do, who lift dressings and unnecessarily debride old wounds that were almost healed, while the nurse gets payed and feels superior, usually while being adored by the mouth-breathing non-Navy-gawddam-CORPSMAN.


- this is irony, heaped on injustice, wrapped in chocolate-covered hatred of self.

a loud, angry shot, signifying nothing until a reaction rises.



there is only one true weakness, and that is the tendency to beg for justice when all is needed is one sharp stick and some self-actualization.

vec
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 06:05:26 PM by vector001 » Logged

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vector001
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« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2016, 12:42:14 PM »

Great artical Chris. I'm not sure how it's different then most Americans think as I haven't asked many Americans this question outside of family and friends who knew this story plus or minus a few details. While abroad I have asked those outside of America what they know of American holidays, celebrations, and culture. These are not necessarily random people I meet in a rail car or a shuttle bus. They are friends or people whom I am friendly enough terms to talk openly with. I have asked about Thanksgiving in particilar and most (Europeans and Russians mostly) knew about it as you described without memorizing specific names, dates, and location.


right, the same people who think Stalin was awesome.

vec
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Drivebytrucker
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« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2016, 03:47:34 PM »


right, the same people who think Stalin was awesome.
vec
[/quote]

The very same people
Lenin too.
Yoko? Not so much.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 07:01:43 PM by Drivebytrucker » Logged
Rooster
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« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2016, 04:20:38 PM »

 The sixty four thousand dollar question for me has always been, why the American Indian seems unable to pull himself up and out of defeat The ambition, determination, incentive and as Vec says, self actualization seems largely non existent. Anybody who has even glanced at statistics knows of the alcohol/drug addiction problems, the educational drop out rates, and even suicides as they rate as some of the highest in the country. And as Vec said, it's of their own doing.
 I have posted this before, but my bitterness lies in being an Indian who sees this land of ours as being something sacred, actually belonging to our father. And the European has given a dollar sign to everything he can lay his hands on, the land, the water, and the trees, he would charge us for air if he could. Being no icon and only guessing as I've spent zero time with any American Indians, but if they have the same feelings and knowledge that I claim to have, it could be as simple as refusing to owe your soul to the company store or the IRS.
 Sometimes I look at us and I say we're all crazy, I'll be out mowing my yard and in my imagination God will ask St Peter, "Whats he doing now." St Peter will answer "He's mowing the yard" and God will answer, "Doesn't he think I know how to take care of my yard?" Civilization, huh.
 Sometimes too, I will take a few moments, sit back and look at America and say, damn immigrants, you created all of this, I choose to remain detached. Of course you can't live like that, but it's like the Garden of Eden with Original sin, except following that we have a murder, one brother of another and that's unfathomable, impossible to understand. It was too easy.
 So maybe it's in the DNA or the gene of the Indian and a switch has been thrown and he simply says no more. We frown upon him and his lack of assimilation, but remember, "judge not least ye be judged," we don't know why they struggle as a people and probably never will.

Hope all at DT are well, Rooster


Thank's to Vec for mentioning compassion and I'm going to add charity.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 10:20:01 PM by Rooster » Logged

I can be just as angry at the jihadists for wanting to kill me, as they are angry with me for being an American.

Yo soy un Indio Americano

 Vayo con dios mi amigos en la fe

 Someday, the highest peak on the tallest mountain on earth, may be nothing more than a grain of sand on the beach.
deerstalker
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« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2016, 09:02:29 PM »


........the American Indian seems unable to pull himself up and out of defeat........

............. my bitterness lies in being an Indian ............


While I suspect some individuals have overcome hardship on their road to prosperity, many indigenous cultures are struggling .......... all round the world.

I'm sure there's many ingredients, not the least of which could be fetal alcohol spectrum disorder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_alcohol_spectrum_disorder

 

« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 09:11:13 PM by deerstalker » Logged
deerstalker
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« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2016, 09:04:30 PM »

Thanks Christopher

http://dirttime.com/the-roots-of-thanksgiving
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Christopher Nyerges
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« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2016, 10:10:23 PM »

hey Vec, glad to read your comments, as always.  Shows you're awake and not just accepting whatever.

Where to begin?  First, in general I agree with everything you said.  Keep in mind that there never was some homogenous mass of belief and culture called "the Indians." the work ethic, the beliefs, the family ties, etc. etc, are vastly different from group to group. (No different than so-called "white people"or so-called "black people," etal). 

i remember after one of the riots in LA there was some murmuring in downtown about how the Koreans are "exploiting" the black people. The Koreans were running all the stores in the mostly-black neighborhoods and there was resentment. I forgot who, but one black communitymember pointed out the obvious--"we do it to ourselves when we don't trust each other, and support black businesses."  There are truths like this that are often hidden, or politically incorrect to say. Native people are no different, and are sometimes their own worst enemies.  But it really is a big subject...

I used to correspond with Vine Deloria Jr before he died, and he tended to be as objective as you could get about "Indian issues," esp. as it related to denying certain historical facts, as best as we can determne.  As for casinos, that was a BIG ball of wax that we only sorta talked around, because you can't really draw conclusions about any Indian group based on whether they have casinos or not.  for some a blessing, others a curse.

As for the mythology I was referring, you asked what reference I was using. I was using as a reference "Christopher Nyerges," a very good reference.  I described in the article the 25 cent version of what happened one October in Plimouth.  But school children are told the very sanitized version, as if it was some generous coming together in peace to praise god and bless the coming United States.  It is mythos because it is a rewriting of history to point out that this land was therefore destined to be America, and blessed by God to become the "New England," et al.   It was a bit of a turning point, to be sure, but the European takeover would have happened anyway, treaty with Massasoit or not.  So perhaps we use that moment and remember it the way we wish, and we give thanks today for whatever we give thanks for. I think that's OK.    Sorta like 1492, we are taught in school, after Columbus sailed the ocean blue, and soon there was America.  That's like saying A necessarily leads to Z, though it doesn't always.   Anyway, for what it's worth, it is likely that MOST native people died off from diseases from introduced pigs and also people, and the disease spread quicker than the white man.  Explorers talked of the Empty Quarter -- all the cities and villages had died off. 

So, as long as we like to remember that as a point in the US history, we should recall the native role accurately. And in fact, remember to thank them TOO...
At least I do -- with my money, and objects too....

I am not against thanking God, but I recall an old Ronald REagan story: (I'll paraphrase, Reagan dragged the story out for a half-hour)> A preacher visits a farm and the farmer shows all the corn and grapes he grews, and the preacher says to praise god for all his blessings. The farmer shows another field full of stuff and the preacher says the same thing. Finally,the somewhat frustrated farmer takes the preacher to the back 40 that had been nothing but weeds, and showed the preacher wehat it was now, full of wheat or whatever. Praise the lord for all the blessings, says the preacher. "Wait a minute," says the preacher,"the Lord wasn't doing much with this field until I came along."  I give thanks where it is due.  But no one is required to agree with me...

Vec, this would be a great fire-side conversation, and maybe one day will be...

Have a great thanksgiving, and always give thanks to Dude, from whom all blessings flow.
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vector001
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« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2016, 10:15:36 PM »

 
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Bill S
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« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2016, 08:39:13 AM »

That "Empty Quarter"...lets' not for get the slave raiders, both white and red, that also contributed to that.

There are lots of warts in our history, that includes every race, ethnic group and religious group on the planet.  I don't think we need to accent the negative or the positive when we talk about history, we won't learn from i if we do either.  We do, however, need to tell the truth about it.  And it will be biased toward the tellers' point of view but that can be checked by researching the same story from a different view point.

Read WW2 histories written by the Japanese, Russians or Germans for example.  Then compare those same battles to one written by an American, Brit or Canadian.  Rather different points of view. 
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