Flintlocks

[Bill S]

For a long term survival hunting weapon, has anyone considered a flintlock?  It only has about six parts, you can get the flint for the igniton from a gravel road, you can make your own powder and if it breaks, it can be repaired in a simple blacksmith shop.  (Although I have a complete extra lock.) It has a lot more range than a bow and it has knock down power so you would spend a lot less time blood trailing.  I wouldn't want to use it for self defense but I could use it to save cartridges for more social occasions where lots of bullets very quickly could be very important.

Now would be the time to aquire one and learn all the quirks and to possibly squirrel away a few pounds of pre made flints, a mold or two, and several pounds of black powder with a few hundred balls or slugs.  If possible, hide it in a secure place at your destination, you'll have better things to carry to make sure you actually get there.  (Remember those guns that shoot lots?) 

[Curdog]

... and the ultimate for a self sufficient firearm is a SMOOTHBORE flinter...

[vector001]

i think i'll stick to a bolt action rimfire and a break-action 12 gauge, for simplicity.

if TSHTF, you'll probably see those two bound together, with the 12 Gauge sawed down and underneath the bolt action 22 LR, like a poor man's M203....

vec

[Bill S]

Brown Bess or something similar.  .22/12ga duct taped together, try shooting that and actually hitting what you aim at...  What happens if the emergency lasts more than 120 days, how are you going to replace that ammo you shoot up?  Trade what to who?  Maybe they'll try to take what you have, now you have less ammo.  And FMJ isn't all that great for hunting.  This is not for defense, although it will work, once, but as a hunting weapon, it lets you save your cartridges for desperate situations.

[vector001]

.22/12ga duct taped together, try shooting that and actually hitting what you aim at...

i didn't say duct tape - you did.

plenty of other ways to do it acceptably.

my cousin did this when we were kids, before we knew it was illegal (IIRC) - it worked great. just a little stock furniture work involved, and some practice patterning the shotgun. i think it's a decent concept. especially if you are handy with wood and composites. add some JB Waterweld (or homemade resin if it gets that bad) to the solution and fuggedabouddit.

  What happens if the emergency lasts more than 120 days, how are you going to replace that ammo you shoot up?

too many ways to go into, to solve that dilemma.

if i can't figure out how to get more ammo, i won't make it to the end of the "120 days" anyways, i reckon.

  Trade what to who?  Maybe they'll try to take what you have, now you have less ammo.

i'm not that paranoid.

6 ways in, twelve ways out, so to speak.

i also have no idea why i'd run out of 22 ammo (not to mention 12 gauge) in 120 days (where the situation actually would produce game AND i'd be allowed to hunt it with a firearm of all things), short of ongoing battle. - if i could hunt, i'd probably be missing three rounds from shooting cantankerous racoons and coyotes in traps, or maybe popping a two-leg here and there that was out of proper hawk range, ...and the 997 other rounds would be sitting there gathering dust.

  And FMJ isn't all that great for hunting. 

not sure where you got the FMJ from.

bow and arrows seem to be sliding out of favor lately too, for lack of perceived takedown; - 'seems like a sophist argument to me, flying in the face of most of human history, as well as my entire relatively-gun-deprived boyhood eating birds, turtles and armadillos.

...and then there are slingshots with tiny 6mm ball bearings, which have taken everything i'd be likely to trap in an extended dilemma - coons, birds, racoons, cats, dogs, yotes....

not to mention that you won't be able to conceal carry a classic flintlock too easily, if it comes to that. - not with a 36" - 48" barrel.

at any rate - FMJ works pretty well on skulls and oblique hits IME. you are right, it's not perfect, but not bad either. really pretty good when killing trapped animals though IME. contacts shots make it even better, due to increased cavitation - if you choose to go that route, using your long arm as part of a trap.

tag close to the CNS with FMJ and go in there and club whatever it is while it's wiggling, and you have a lot more good fur.

false argument still though, i feel - bring better bullets. yer done.

This is not for defense, although it will work, once, but as a hunting weapon, it lets you save your cartridges for desperate situations.

but you are carrying all that lead and support gear for a large caliber firearm, is my concern - and now you are also carrying conventional firearms in your scenario - dubious propostion IMHO becasue the pounds and volume are ticking upward, especially when ya gotta move afoote, and not return.


let's see the weights of what you are going to carry - plus your level of fitness!


- weight per value, i think .22 LR is a better deal. - traps and a bow will do the rest - and if it was really an extended emergency, i wouldn't bet on game being around anyways. hunting to survive just seems silly to me. - so you are back to needing that primary firearm as a repeater for defense, or at least something with a lot of reach compared to a fliintlock.

good luck though, and most importantly - take pride in the things you have conviction with.

and maybe watch out for getting sniped with .22 FMJ and then hawked after TSHTF, bro. - i hear flintlock folks are paranoid.

i'm kidding.

i kid.



vec

[mouse]

Muzzleloaders are a lot of fun. However, the price of a new flintlock will buy a .22 rifle and a lifetime supply of ammo.
I have made blackpowder(lab setting) and it is not difficult with the proper equipment. Again, I do not recommend it as things do not always go as planned.
If your plan is to have a flintlock stuck back for when all other resources are gone, that plan is OK. If you plan to start with a flintlock, that is a different story.

[Curmudgeon]

I like flintlocks but don't see them as a serious survival firearm.  First, I have enough ammo to last a couple of lifetimes.  If someone plans on stealing/taking it and gets it (from it's assorted locations) then I'll probably be dead anyway.  If for some reason I did bug out I'll have a 22 rimfire rifle and a thousand rounds of ammo with me.  Again, enough for a couple of lifetimes.

At the flintlock stage of survival I'd prefer a crossbow or hand-held bow.  If it's that bad I don't want to advertise my presence with a loud BANG!  If we need wild game I'll be trapping/snaring most of it anyway.

Steve

[Combat-Trout]

I like flintlocks but don't see them as a serious survival firearm.  First, I have enough ammo to last a couple of lifetimes.  If someone plans on stealing/taking it and gets it (from it's assorted locations) then I'll probably be dead anyway.  If for some reason I did bug out I'll have a 22 rimfire rifle and a thousand rounds of ammo with me.  Again, enough for a couple of lifetimes.

At the flintlock stage of survival I'd prefer a crossbow or hand-held bow.  If it's that bad I don't want to advertise my presence with a loud BANG!  If we need wild game I'll be trapping/snaring most of it anyway.

Steve

Between the flash and the smoke, it'd be like ringing the dinner bell...

The 22 is an easy effective way to go, but for hunting, etc... I'd go with trapping or a bow. Simple, effective, and stuff I can make (resupply) myself. If it's a total societal meltdown, well, I think there'll be bigger issues than how much ammo you can carry. Fireblast! Did I just say that? 

[james huffaker]

Gents;

 Like was said in another post, it is said that during the depression, hunters and fisherman's families starved, trappers families didn't. Granted, they needed a rather eclectic pallet, but they ate. Generalization? Yup. Were there exceptions? Yup.

 If we don't have primers (however we arrive there), we can't make our guns fire, assuming we're talking about reloading after loaded ammo is depleted in a protracted situation. A flintlock, the availability of rocks that will spark on the fitzen(Sp?), a metal that can be melted to make ball and run shot and the ability to make black powder, allows hunting with a firearm.

 I fully intend to trap (commercial snares, 220/440's) and fish (gill nets/trout lines).

 Agreed, silence is golden, especially when poaching (hunger doesn't understand hunting seasons). Bow and arrows, sling shots, absolutely.
 A simple wood slingshot that hides in a back pocket and a pocket full of ball bearings or stones for targets of opportunity, is an arrangement too good to pass up IMHO.
 And I'm in the market for a good take down recurve (agreed, my eastern woodlands hickory self bow is too long to be able to hide in transit potentially).

To me, having options is a good thing  . 

Regards, Jim

ETA: Or suppressed

[.338winmag]

Muzzle loaders both flinter's and cap locks are a lotta fun specialy for the romanticly inclined history buff ,but imo as a bug out survival tool not for this boy and we've plenty of experience both shootin and building both types for provably 20 or so years any way ,but the 22rifle preferably bolt gun and a shotgun seems about right for fairly long term subsistence living at least as far as fire arms go ,but myself i'd back that battery up with a crossbow for many reasons and possibly bows and arrows as well but hte crossbow would definately be going or made from found or cached materials if possible after the fact once again the weight factor alone would discourage me from luggin a coal burner up in the hills ,but any way this is fun stuff to discuss if we ever meet we could debate the pros and cons of arms till the cows come home lol this just my take on this by the way ..338winmag

[Curdog]

it is said that during the depression, hunters and fisherman's families starved, trappers families didn't.

WHO said that?  What about farmers? 

[mouse]

Curdog

Thank you for your comment regarding trapping. Buckshot Hemming said it and some others. However, I have talked to many who survived the depression in my area. None of them survived by trapping but by agriculture. The area that I lived in was also in a severe drought so farming was tough. The main crops were turnips and peas. My grandfather grew some corn by plowing a grid with 2 foot squares. My dad placed a corn seed at each intersection and his sister placed a thimble of fertilizer with each seed.
Trapping would have worked but there wasn't much to trap. No deer, no coons, very few of anything else. My father-in-law said that there was an old man who would pay $5 to see a coon track (the average wage was 50 cents per day so that was 10 days wages).

That is just a long way to say that I agree with you. I also hope and pray that we don't see another great depression but I am afraid that the next one will be worse.

[Zengunfighter]

Hey, if you have a flintlock, you always have a method to make fire!

I think the real beauty of the flintlock is the same as us making fire with flint and steel/bow drill/ferro rod.

You have to become much more intimate with the process to have success. If you can do it with the previously mentioned
equipment, then you can do it for sure, and easier, with more 'modern' equipment.

Most people in the woods, couldn't start a fire if they had a Bic lighter.
The success rate for deer hunters in NY with modern long guns is like 15%.

If you can bag critters with a flinter, you can do it with a new gun For Sure When It Counts.

[punaforge]

This maybe a left turn without a blinker - But if your worried about extreme long term, how about designing a durable shotgun shell /adapter kind of thing with a pizzo electric crystal instead of a primer. the powder and shot you can make primitive. and use it in your conventional gun.  


and thats not a fantasy design, if i can get near a decent lathe i can make that. high grade tube for shell and mill a base/plug tall enuff to hide the works with a little spark gap to light the powder       

[C.Atrox]

For a long term survival hunting weapon, has anyone considered a flintlock?  It only has about six parts, you can get the flint for the igniton from a gravel road, you can make your own powder and if it breaks, it can be repaired in a simple blacksmith shop.  (Although I have a complete extra lock.) It has a lot more range than a bow and it has knock down power so you would spend a lot less time blood trailing.  I wouldn't want to use it for self defense but I could use it to save cartridges for more social occasions where lots of bullets very quickly could be very important.

Now would be the time to acquire one and learn all the quirks and to possibly squirrel away a few pounds of pre made flints, a mold or two, and several pounds of black powder with a few hundred balls or slugs.  If possible, hide it in a secure place at your destination, you'll have better things to carry to make sure you actually get there.  (Remember those guns that shoot lots?) 

I say they have there place. If you get into a prolonged gun battle with a group of thugs that want you that bad, your brain better be doing most of the work, or you are dead be your firearm a rock lock or Ma deuce mounted on your German Shepherd. That said, A musket would be a good choice as would a small caliber flinter. The gear to support it can be minimal to. You dont need 70% of the stuff that you think you do. A hand full of 32 cal lead balls will fit in your pocket, and a small half pint whiskey bottle will fit in the other. You can charge and prime just fine with 3F. And the smoke is not that bad either with small caliber rifles .45 and smaller. And scrap led is easy to come by to. So in the case of a small caliber rifle weight and bulk is pretty much a non issue. A cross bow was mentioned in another post, and I agree with that. If my life depended on it I would take the crossbow and a .22 over a rock lock any-day, but would not feel I was lacking if I only had a .40 cal flint lock. Cost was mentioned, and I agree there to. A decent flinter will cost what a good .22 and a brick or two of ammo does with a high dollar knife and a Vechawk thrown in. A musket can be had for about $375 to $400 if you look hard enough.